Setting things straight
Wed, 2005-08-24 18:04 — ssm
It’s been crazy here the last few days. And more than a little disappointing as well, personally speaking. But the flip side, I’m glad to see people speaking their mind. Even in the future, if there’s something you don’t like, or feel strongly about, please speak up.
First thing - we don’t have any moderation here. And since all of us, including the site admins, are pretty busy with the rest of our non-DSS lives, it is expected that we self-moderate. I don’t believe this needs any further explanation. Let’s be courteous to others. There are going to be differences of opinion, but there’s a nice way to go about that, and there’s an abrasive (and even abusive) way. The latter, though generally speaking rare at this site, is something we ought to avoid at all costs.
To quote the “Participation guidelines” at this site:
Participation guidelines:
This is a small and informal community of writers. If you would like to join in, please use the “Create New Account” link on the top left. However, all requests for new accounts will be looked at by the moderators. We make the call whether to approve the request or decline, completely at our discretion.
For members, there is pretty much no moderation, not even in moderation. 
. We detest the idea of any kind of censorship, especially when it comes to the language used as part of a creative piece of writing.
However, we do not appreciate blogs with a single point agenda, be it political, religious, linguistic, social, or any such category, where the tone of the blogger inhibits discussion. This applies to those commenting on such blogs as well. We reserve the right to remove any member for abusive behavior, but we’d like to avoid having to resort to such action except very very rarely. So please don’t do anything to make us consider that option. Pretty please.
What follows from the above is a need for the site admins here (i.e. up until a few days ago, this was Buck, IBL & me) to step up & do something about it when abuse is noticed.
In the same vein, and for the same reason above, I’ve had to block yosso’s handle from this site. This is something I should have done a long while ago. I don’t want to go into all the gory details. Let me just say that there have been multiple instances, and any one of them should have been reason enough to have taken this step a while ago. This handle also happens to be the only one I’ve received complaints about from other bloggers. The least I could’ve done was support buck when he was trying to do something about it. And another thing I should’ve done, but did not do, was to stand up for the bloggers who were at the receiving end at various times. If there’s one thing I’m sorry about, it was my not taking any prompt action immediately after it happened.
One more thing. Just to remind everyone why we came away from sulekha & started blogging as a separate group. We came away primarily to have a space, sans noise & spam, where we could share and get feedback on the many different things we write about. Getting back to those basic things would be an excellent way to go forward. The fraternalization that came about is a side-effect and is a huge bonus, but let’s not lose sight of why we got together in the first place.
As kanurite says, “can we PLEASE get on with the program and start writing ?”
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Comments
Taking sides
SSM
Unfortunately I can see the point both parties have made. It is unfortunate to be able to see more than one point of view.
Unfortunately, also, I see other ways to resolve this issue without blocking anyone as well as respecting the feelings of people.
I also see how hard it is to be in your position. To be burdened with the well being of other adults is never a pleasant experience. As an administrator, to be thrust in this role is not a great situation.It puts an adminstrator in the role of a paternal figure which is quite unnecessary. I am surprised more have not spoken about this.
On a personal level, hence my support is with you as I see your action is in good faith. On a level of principle, I must express my dissent as I see this could have been resolved in other ways.
I will wait for the dust to settle too.
Booky
Once again, thanks for all the feedback.
All,
Thanks for all the comments & the feedback. I sincerely respect the fact that you guys have taken the time to express your thoughts about this. It tells me that you guys care enough about this place to want to talk about this & comment in such detail. And though I wish I could respond in detail to every single point that you guys have written, I am resisting doing that for a simple reason - I want the dust to settle.
Like I said in my blog, I do not want to go into all the gory details. I will say one thing however - when I mentioned “multiple instances”, I meant incidents observed not just on the shoutbox, but blogs & comments too. And not just in the past few weeks, but stretching back over many months.
I understand - this might have come across as a knee-jerk response. But you’ll have to take my word for it - that this was a long-overdue step. To repeat what I said in the blog, if I have to apologize for anything, it’s in the timing, not the decision itself.
And once again, to repeat myself, this sort of step will not be taken in haste in the future. I don’t foresee myself having to do this anytime, except in the rarest of circumstances. And that too, only after having exhausted abundant patience & tolerance, just like in this case. I don’t know “yosso-the-person” and that is not relevant either. What I am familiar with is “yosso-the-handle”, and that handle’s track record, not just in the past few weeks, but stretching back to when we started off at the “goodwritings” site is a mixed bag - some admirable writing interspersed with some atrocious lack of decorum & respect for other bloggers. Of the latter, there’s not a single other blogger here who comes anywhere close.
Again, I hope I have earned enough trust for you guys to take my word on this - that this is the best way to move forward for DSS as a whole.
I suspect I will just be repeating myself if I respond again - I think I’ve said all that I want to say.
Please feel free to talk about this as much as you want. After all, this is one thing we have learned from this whole mess - that it’s much better to communicate than to sit on things. Or push stuff under the carpet. Or speaking from an admin’s perspective, it’s much better to act on fixing problems immediately rather than just wishing they would go away.
Rajesh - I’m sorry if you feel that way, and I wish you would reconsider. And uber, thanks for your blog - appreciate the support very very much.
imho
i have refrained from joining the debate so far, because i viewed it as a personal matter. i did think this was an appropriate time to express my personal opinions, though.
for me, and this is completely personal, when i join a community, i agree to abide by its principles of existence in essence. i also agree to abide by the decisions of the admins, no matter how contrary it is to my personal opinion. this does not stop me from debating upon the decision, but at the end of the day, if i do not agree, i have a choice of continuing by (a) ignoring the things i don’t agree with, (b) in the fond hope that things will change, or (c) leaving the community. either way, it is very personal, and no one can really influence my decision except myself.
the point is, will i allow one decision/one person to control my actions?
personally, i too have had my share of comments which i perceived as being in bad taste (and i do recognize that this is entirely my perception).
i always asked myself: would i allow myself to be brought down by a comment, or a person who repeatedly slips in such comments, or would i concentrate on what is important to me, viz., my writing?
so far, i have always ended up opting for the latter. by giving more importance to the discouraging element, i realized that i was at one stroke discounting all the encouragement i ever got. a classic case of the good going unrecognized.
i do understand, however, that only the wearer of the shoe knows best where it pinches.
for me, DSS has primarily been a venue for reading excellent pieces/reviews/articles, etc., and for posting my own writing. i have enjoyed everyone’s writing and thoughts, and respect their abilities as writers. that i have made some wonderful friends along the way is a lovely bonus. i do hope this will continue - i would certainly experience a sense of loss otherwise.
My longish Response.
I have been silent and rather intentionally too. I believe this whole issue deserves a deep and thorough answer. I tell myself that once I have formulated my response – I’ll post it. It’s a very nice procrastination method. But for what it is worth – here is my response, on the fly so to speak. I reserve the right to change my mind on this, however.
I am not for censorship. I don’t think anyone here is. I am not aware of anyone coerced into silence because of their views. It’s how those views are presented that I think is the issue. Although I can understand why contrarian views presented “ungently” will stand out.
Am I being corny and old-fashioned when I hold up gentleness as a value. Yes. And I believe to large extent it is cherished by everyone here. I am not aware of anyone who routinely crossed the line. Except perhaps Yosso. (More on this later).
I am reluctant to debate what other handles may have crossed the line. Because A) I am unaware of it and B) I haven’t noticed a pattern in their behavior. So that is pretty much it as far as other handles are concerned; from me.
Now on to Yosso. Here is how I read Yosso’s handle. I do not have a problem with his stance – old fashioned rabble-rousing, deliberate contrarianism and provacation and etc. All good and useful things in any society. They serve a purpose. But they are hard things to pull off without sometimes crossing the line. You have to play fairly near the line to be effective and sooner or later you will cross it. You have to accept that. It has it’s rewards and it has its risks.
And I believe Yosso crossed the line repeatedly. There is one incident that I think is ban-worthy. I was there and said nothing then. I accept the unfairness of mentioning it now; considering I never said anything about it then. But here it goes. I believe it was in the early part of June. Yosso went “all cap” while discussing an issue with another blogger. I did not see anything the other blogger did that brought this on. Yosso then said that he was trying to highlight the comment and didn’t intend to come of as “shouting”. A plausible explanantion sure, but probable? No, not in my opinion. I am not sure if this is the incident that precipitated the present crisis. But it was ban-worthy in my opinion. I am speaking for myself here.
Now, I don’t know about a permanent ban. I think in instances like this, a handle should be informed as soon as possible, given an opportunity to either explain or tender an unqualified apology. Knowing what I know of the site admins. I don’t think they ignored this intentionally. I don’t think there was a mechanism in place for this sort of thing. Compared to Sulekha this place is a sea of kindness, so I don’t think anyone anticipated needing any redressal mechanism.
I think it would be nice to have one. But I also understand that people who maintain this site shouldn’t be made to spend more time than is reasonable. This whole thing I am sure takes a lot of time and energy. I do not feel comfortable asking for more. Sure due process is nice. Sure we would like to document every transgression. But this takes a lot of work if it is to be done fairly. You have to write rules that cover multiple contingencies, lay out vast notes on procedure and what not. Is this feasible? Do we really need it? Are we unaware of what the norms of this place are?
The way I see it. It is bit like the wild west. Everyone has a gun and they can look out for themselves. But still, sometimes, you need a sheriff. Now you can’t expect this sheriff to be accompanied by a prosecutor and defense attorney every time trouble breaks out. Frankly our town doesn’t have that kind of resources. What we can do is pick someone we have faith in, someone we can trust to do the right thing. And be willing to live with the differences of opinion.
I would like to add that the sheriffs make it clear when they say something as a “sheriff” and what they say in their off-duty hours. I don’t want to stiffle anyone’s ability to speak freely when they are not on duty.
Damn I am tired after that long comment. Say pardner, is there a drinking establishment in this town? And by the way where do the ladies of loose morals hang out?
one thing that I can
one thing that I can appreciate in what u’ve written tocsin, is that it’s a really tough job being an admin…..I think they get to face the burden of honoring complaints and grievances like it were their personal problems! that’s totally unfair….I find it so hard to catch up with whatever is going on here, I wonder how can one person monitor it completely day in and day out…..it must be so stressful….so yes, maybe a lot of goals that we would like to meet with respect to site policies etal are quite difficult given the time and energy site admins can put in, and maybe even impossible….given the blurred lines of distinction between the rights and the wrongs of so many members of this site…..but that still doesn’t want me to consent to quick fixes rather than solutions…..
that said, ssm I really appreciate whatever u are doing for us all here….and even tho I can’t agree with u on everything…the least I can do right now is respect ur decisions….
all this mayhem has made me realize the importance of being just a somebody here versus being an admin….I think buck, ssm and even ibl deserve much more appreciation for their contribution to this community than they otherwise get….so, maybe I’ll just drink to that….tequila, was it?
enig!
re: setting things straight
ssm,
The more I want to forget about it and get back to work and writing, the more keeps happening in this space to make it hard.
Kanurite has really summed up most of what I had to say, but was answered in one line – most of her points were not even addressed. I agree that moderators do not need to be accountable for their decisions, but do we want to go down that route?
Already, Rajesh has said a goodbye, and in general, I don’t see a lot of happiness about this things. Since I had typed half of the response before that, there is quite some overlap with Rajesh’s sentiments here:
Okay, here then are a few questions that I have:
1) Fairness: (kanu/ibl raised this but was ignored) Why is one kind of abuse okay and another a problem? Or are former admins allowed swear words by the virtue of them being admins?
2) Procedure: What is the procedure for blocking a fellow member? Even the other admin doesn’t seem in sync with the decision, forget other members. Why? The other admin doesn’t even have any formal complaint. As for formal complaints that the admin (ssm) has, what are they? Did you get back to the offending member saying – these these are the complaints against you?
Was he warned in private or public – that this sort of offense again would qualify for a ban? (“why don’t you go away”, is not a warning – and it was from ssm the person, not ssm the admin).
3) Shoutbox: I mean, I’m a snake on shoutbox, ano is ghost, people say whatever they feel there. Is that a yardstick for “abuse”? And if so, I distinctly remember things like: buck is kicking yosso’s ass said on the sb, among murmurs of approval, and such things. What is/was admin’s stand? We’ve divided people into good and bad, and good people can abuse/write-off the bad people cheapely, but bad-people wud be held responsible for far lesser crimes. This almost sounds like religious sect.
4) “did they bomb tokyo” is not an abuse. insensitive yes. but again, since when is sb a place for sensitivity?
5) Do we want to turn into a religious orthodoxy, with holy cows and and inquisitions?
Just a day before you gave a “wrist slap” when yosso asked you whether that was what had happened to other “abusers”. You ignored the implied question and said to him, consider i’ve slapped your wrist. And that you were watching. Then a day later, this. What has changed?
You say:
One more thing. Just to remind everyone why we came away from sulekha & started blogging as a separate group. We came away primarily to have a space, sans noise & spam, where we could share and get feedback on the many different things we write about. Getting back to those basic things would be an excellent way to go forward. The fraternalization that came about is a side-effect and is a huge bonus, but let’s not lose sight of why we got together in the first place.
SB is NOTHING but fraternalization. It’s NOT about writing. And yet, a member is banned based essentially on what he said on SB. Do you see an irony here? The things for which yosso has been scolded : arrogance for instance is not-literary in value (and again shared by some other people here). The rate at which things are happening here, we’d be doomed before we know. I’d seriously advise you to reconsider or at least explain your decision. Otherwise, rather than setting things straight, you might just end up brining this painstakingly created structure down. It’s everyone’s loss.
sincerely,
asuph.
on killing voices.....
hey ssm….i’m not really sure where to start….I’ve been a mute spectator to whatsoever is going on in the insane world of DSS since the last few days….this is not new, and has happened before too…I’ve never chosen to comment on such quarrels which supercede everything else and become way too personal and hurtful for some people here….but I just can’t ignore this one….
I’ve been a member of this community from as long as I can remember…although I’ve stayed away from all the friendly personal interactions which so many people here seem to enjoy…I feel as much a part of this community as anyone else…and I don’t mind or question a bit as to how other members choose to interact….what has been happening in the last few days has been disappointing to say the least…moreso because I’ve known these bloggers through their writings since long…and I completely admire them for that and much more….
I honestly don’t believe that blocking some id is the solution to the problems that we have here….we are all different people and are bound to have differences in opinions and even in the way we express those opinions..just like in real life, some of these opinions and ways of interaction are going to be harsh but truthful to some, and hurtful to others….the same way as giving dishonest comments can be considered a sacrilege to some, and just a way of life to others….why are we partial to the ones who hide themselves behind masks and pretences as compared to the ones who just come out straight with how they feel? I can understand if it is against someone spamming this site….the likes of which happened in sulekha when we left….but what we have now is not really that…..because yosso, for one doesn’t write spam in his pieces….and I think he is one of the most sensible writers around…and I say a writer, and not a person…because I really have no business judging him as a person….
so, why indulge in any double standards….if some members think that it’s outrageous the way he comments…..there might be some who think so about other people…..who go on to be dishonest in their comments, and pretend to enjoy some pieces when they’re actually not….do u think it’s a lesser sacrilege? and these are people who assume that no one counters such personal attacks on them and go on to presume how the tone of DSS is not to take nething seriously as long as it’s not happening to u….I think it’s a bigger crime….to be dishonest in ur sayings first and then blaming other people for ur rights and ur wrongs….I think it’s a bigger crime to assume that people here are irresponsible in not answering to ur help pleas…..because maybe these people have a real life, with real problems….which are bigger than ur virtual identity problems….or maybe because, plain and simple, people don’t see things the way u do and find it silly to entertain personal quarrels in public forums….so if u choose to block yosso’s id, u might want to think about blocking a few others….the ones who got a tearful farewell instead and not the kicking off ceremony….and slowly and eventually this might include each one of us, ‘coz I doubt if in real life, we can really get along with each other one bit…..’coz we are a community of people having different set of beliefs and opinions….and that is precisely our strength, isn’t it? it’s a forum not about personal problems, but something bigger than that…..about the vagaries of writing and expression……..so, shudn’t we just celebrate the differences and move on, rather than killing the voices of those who speak not our own language….
enig!
enig!!!
that was a very very sensible comment. i think you’ve said everything i should have said.
regards,
asuph.
thanks for the comments, guys
ananth, nithya - thanks.
IBL - i haven’t changed the defaults for viewing contents, except for restricting it so that only members can post comments to blogs. is this something you setup in the past ? let’s take this offline, please - could you send me an email ? i agree, contents should be visible to the world, and we ought to set it up that way.
bilb - yup, exactly.
kanu - like bilb says, self-moderation works here in almost all cases. unfortunately, there are exceptions where moderators need to step in.
like i said (and i’ll keep saying it), i haven’t taken this step in a hurry. and it left a bad taste in my mouth too. but it had to be done - there was no way around it.
and i expect (& hope) this to be a very very rare occurrence.
reminds me
of clockwork orange and the debate we had post movie on state control and individual will. To what extent do we self police and when does the authority step in . we could go blue in the face arguing that one. I for one prefer the self policing but I dont think it works for every one
Lost
I am confused with the whole situation out here. Why does Yosso have to be blocked? I agree there have been times when he has been a pain in the butt and been exasperating but any public forum would always have a few such people. I have had my share of hair pulling arguments with him and one would expect me to be the last person defending him, but I seriously feel its too drastic a move and can only request that you guys reconsider.
By slowing blocking people one by one because they are disagreeable to a certain sect of the members, dont you think we are just building gates and fences and in the process locking ourselves up? Where you would like to share your writings with as many people as possible, you just end up sharing it with a chosen few.
Also, different people have different tolerence levels.. some incidents might have been exaggerated, and being humans that we are there is a tendency to project ourselves as victims and find solace in numbers and classify someone as being ‘mean’.. and the marked person wouldnt ever stand a chance..
I also dont see why the site administrators need to be dragged into petty squabbles when they already have their hands full, struggling to keep the site functioning. Isnt it unfair on our part to expect them to first listen to our whinings, then go through the comments on DSS as well as the archives on SB and then finally take some action? Nobody’s out here to tell tales on someone. If we really do have an issue with someone on the site, then I think each one of us can fight our own battles. Let the admin be. It just leaves a bad after taste.
There is another way of resolving it as well.. where the person who posts the blog has the option of deleting a comment posted for his or her blog.. that ways, you dont argue.. dont get dragged into uneccessary fights.. and peace prevails.. even better, if you JUST dont want certain members to post on your blogs, then you just block them from your posts and they dont post comments on your posts. I have no clue on how complicated working that out would be, and how time consuming, but thats one suggestion I can think of. If it too much of an effort, I am sure we can stick to our ‘fight-our-own-battles’ bit.
I also can see Yosso’s point when he questioned why certain members are guarded against any kind of jibes, whereas there would be a section who wouldnt be empathised with in a similar situation. I can think of the two recent blogs where in one case it was supposed to be humor but directed at someone.. if it was malicious it certainly was in bad taste and couldnt have agreed more when it was pointed out too and the person was asked to remove the link.
In the case of the other blog, it was a long winding narrative alluding towards ‘someone’ from here.. with pointed derision… knowing very well that the person frequents the site regularly and having enough malice to want to subject that person to discomfort on a public forum. So what if the identity of the person was not revealed.. the writer knew that the person would be reading the blog right? How come that was not seen as something written in bad taste initially before it was pointed out?
I feel the random comments that Yosso posted for various images and blogs was his twisted way of making the same point but now I’ll never know.
Tequila it is.
Kanu....
Kanu…
I thought enough had been said. But it looks like you have more to say.
If you have/had a problem with the contents of my blog, you should have said so…on my blog when everyone had a chance to do so. I would have respected that, even appreciated it. But now you are raking up issues knowing full well that it could lead to another misunderstanding…I dont understand that.
Let me make one thing clear Kanu…and anyone else that feels like her….I dont feel the necessity to defend my intent and quite honestly I care a damn if you make assumptions about my intent or my motive. You are entitled to your opinions about blogs, bloggers and whatever else you wish to opine about. If you think I was being malicious, then so be it. Your opinion about me does not really make a difference to the truth or reality, does it??
But please do not open another can of worms here…The matter…all the matters are at rest after a long hiatus from anything normal.
Since you had posted a blog calling for peace and maturity, I am of the belief that that is really what you want…so now, here’s you chance. if you still wish to debate this or have the last word and stamp on this, please feel free to email me and we can hash it out on YM….for now…please let peace prevail.
To quote a young woman who made sense, ‘ENOUGH… can we PLEASE get on with the program and start writing????!!!!’
Chay...
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that my comment had to do with you. It was more to do with yosso and the background which led to his being banned from the site. It just happened that your blog happened to be one of them. If it was really written with the intent of asking you for justifications, I would have elaborated more on the blog, mentioned your name etc, which I didnt.
Yes I do have an opinion about your blog, as I would about other blogs, but it is my prerorgative when I choose to voice it and when not to. So I really am not seeking a debate over the content of your blog, because it does not interest me. I am not here to fight proxy battles.
But censorship in a community that I belong to certainly does interest me and hence my comment here.
I did get enlightened recently on other incidents where yosso’s crossed the line and how it got built to his being banned from the site.
What I had posted was a genuine query on what went wrong, and the how’s and why’s of it based just on the recent happenings with absolutely no clue of cummulative under currents from long before.
I think...
blocking is not the answer to anything. I also see that I have to login to see any content on this site… which makes it all the more annoying. Perhaps this makes us more closed in every possible ways.
Let’s take some
(timeout) speculate and decide as a community “Where do we want to head further?” and “How we want to grow as a community?” I hope that personal bias and prejudice will not be a factor while we take this decission. The only thing what I want is no one to be hurt because of whatever decisions we take! Also no one leaves this community in a huff!
Yay! DSS will be rocking
Yay! DSS will be rocking back soon:) Thanks SSM, buck & iblu..
well
am not sure banning is the answer and wont fully agree with you too ( as I said before ) but I know admins have to act sometime in the larger interest of the community
As u have rightly said, lets hope you will never have to do it again.
thanks
chay, sunshine, humsafar - thanks for the support.
chay - this wasn’t an easy decision to take. nor was it done in haste. but, believe me, it just had to be done.
and i sincerely hope this is the last time i have to do anything like this.
SSM….appreciate the
SSM….appreciate the ownership and the sincere effort to bring us all back on track here…thanks a ton!! You did a good job putting out the fires….
About Yosso …inspite of all that he wrote here - the comments, the stubborn arguments and the sometimes acerbic but sensible blogs, I enjoyed what he brought to the table or the screen so to speak….I dont like it that blocking his handle out was the only way out. But I understand where the admin is coming from and respect the decision completely…I dont, agree, but I wont challenge it either.
Who else have we lost…? Yoss, fizzles….anyone else leaving?
Oh dont worry too much about me….I’ll get over it and start using smileys again soon!!
have I been away for too long?
Whats going on folks? Whatever it is, glad that SSM is taking the initiative to clear the air. At the end of the day, we all want DSS to be the blogtopia (did I just coin a new term?) for enthusiastic bloggers… everything else comes miles after that.
cheers!
humsafar.
hey ssm, Appreciate the
hey ssm,
Appreciate the effort u r putting in to get things in order here.
thanks, guys ..
uber … glad to see you back here. and thanks, peps !
p.s. hallelujah to you too, uber
Outrageous!!
I dare not think what the consequences of this step is going to be. I cannot even BEGIN to think. In fact, I doubt if I can think.
HOWEVER, I must say that what the site admins have done, they have done in good spirit and bad taste. But then, good spirit always had bad taste. Case in example – Tequila. Good spirit, TERRIBLE taste. Do I not have a point then?
Hallelujah to the site admin, and Hallelujah to Tequila.
~U
amen to that
hopefully.